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But there’s a shriveling of what the news hole occupies compared to the opinion space, which was always significant, however there’s a shriveling of that. And also, I think there’s a destruction of what you view as the news area because they now take a great deal of clips from their leading viewpoint hosts and inject it into their so-called news shows so that the real news part …

FOLKENFLIK: Yeah. And after that they’re like, well, what do you state about that? And then it enables them to have sections that are basically opinion inside what are technically news programs. The newsiness of the news side has also been diminished. And do not believe that that’s not noticed internally by journalists and producers there.

He was accompanied by his executive, Roger Ailes. And I discuss Ailes ’cause Ailes has actually been so crucial with that because he stoked that grievance. It became part of the network’s formula on and off the air – was to stir that sense of grievance so that no matter how legitimate or not valid it was, it would only feel more highlighted.

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And the something he’s never ever had in the U.S. in the method that he’s had it in his native Australia and in Britain, where he’s been so prominent, has actually resembled a bat phone to the White Home. Now he is sort of contemptuous of Trump. SANDERS: Yeah. FOLKENFLIK: Murdoch understood Trump from tabloid days in New york city City when Trump desired to be well-known through the tabloids and from simply sort of being out and about in the town.

So he is fired. Rupert decides, I’m going to run it for a while, and I’m going to throw in my lot with Donald Trump. And you know what? He and Trump were on the phone all the time. He goes, you understand, silently to the White House in manner ins which aren’t reported.

I did stories early on in the administration in 2017 revealing that they were tied and they were talking extremely often. SANDERS: Actually? FOLKENFLIK: So all of a sudden, what Murdoch has is a line into the White Home that he’s never ever had prior to. The compromise he’s had to make is it’s a candidate he doesn’t think in.

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So then if the relationship between Fox News and Trump is frayed right now, to say the least, does what’s going on there represent, like, an existential crisis for Fox or simply, like, a bump along the roadway? Exists a moment a year or more from now where Fox’s seeing audience has forgotten about Trump and they’re absolutely Team Fox again? Or has this essentially altered the way that Fox News will run in the conservative media space? FOLKENFLIK: I mean, in some ways, it depends on its leadership and it depends upon its characters.

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And, you understand, in the absence of very strong leadership being exerted, they’ve got extremely strong personalities. And, you understand, Trump grumbles all he wants, but, you know, who did he provide a declaration to in the last, you know, day or two about the significance of there being a serene transfer of power, eventually? He gives that to Fox News now that he doesn’t have a Twitter feed.

You know, their most popular hosts are among the most considerate voices out there for him. So he still needs them, and he probably needs them more than they need him. SANDERS: Coming up in simply a minute, what a post-Trump world indicates for all of cable television news, not just Fox.